Starblade Riven Darksquall ([info]_starblade_) wrote in [info]debate,
2003-10-17 15:41:00

Beliefs.

Okay, it looks like I'm going to have to take a stand here.

Many people think that just because I have different beliefs than them that I'm utterly stupid. I have a belief, that I am a dragon spiritually, (And I won't get into detail about that here.) which essentially makes me an Otherkin. I, of course, hold that Otherkinism, the belief that one is not human spiritually, is a perfectly valid spiritual belief.

However, other people seem to claim to know that I'm wrong. A number of them have pointed out ridiculous examples, like a person who believes they are a magical wizard who can ACTUALLY do things like shoot fireballs out of their hand, as a reason why having your own beliefs is stupid. (BTW, I'm not arguing that their false logic makes me right. Then I'd be using a very similar kind of straw man fallacy that they are.) They proceed to argue that there is something wrong with me.

However, there is nothing wrong with me. My situation, where I believe I am something spiritually other than human, is much different than their examples. I would like to point out that there is a BIG difference between a belief that can be falsified and a belief that cannot be.

A belief that can be falsified can be proven to be true or false. This is where fact, reasoning, and all of the other scientific/philosophical constructs come into play. I can factually disprove someone's belief that they have magical powers and can shoot magical fireballs out of their hands. I cannot, however, factually disprove, oh, say, the existence of, say, God. That's because theology is inherently unscientific. Therefore, theological claims cannot be falsified. In fact, most to all spiritual beliefs also cannot be falsified.

A belief that cannot be falsified does not automatically make it untrue. It exists outside of what can be proven or disprove. So logically, in this case, people should be allowed to believe whatever they want, as long as they don't claim that others have to believe the same as them, and respect other people's choices just as they'd have other people respect theirs. This means, basically, that you can't just kill somebody because you believe that your 'God' told you so, because then you wouldn't be respecting their choices not to be killed, based on their belief that their 'God' values their life and so would not want them to be killed.

So, as long as you understand the difference between a falsifiable belief an un-falsifiable belief, understand the limits of your own belief system and respect what has been established as fact scientifically, and respect other people for their choices as long as they are also doing the same, then there is in fact no harm in believing whatever spiritual view one chooses to believe in.

The debate is: Do you agree or disagree, and do you have anything else you have to say on this topic?

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[info]kylebee

October 17 2003, 15:47:43 UTC 8 years ago

Otherkin.

Right.

[info]_starblade_

October 17 2003, 15:49:31 UTC 8 years ago

Error: Sentence fragment.

Please say something of value if you are going to say something at all. Spewing out sentence fragments that have no meaning whatsoever is not contributing to this debate at all whatsoever.

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[info]quantumbitch

October 17 2003, 15:49:09 UTC 8 years ago

bwahahahahahaha

[info]_starblade_

October 17 2003, 15:49:49 UTC 8 years ago

...

Eh?

[info]raspberrypie

8 years ago

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[info]ghostlight

October 17 2003, 15:54:21 UTC 8 years ago

On the strength of the previous responses, I rest my case.

[info]_starblade_

October 17 2003, 15:56:28 UTC 8 years ago

That's easy.

It's quite easy to rest your case when you do not have one.

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[info]chirogrl

October 17 2003, 15:55:16 UTC 8 years ago

Can you say Psychiatrist?

Drugs are good! :)

[info]_starblade_

October 17 2003, 15:57:26 UTC 8 years ago

Drugs?

You mean like the type that Rush Limbaugh took?

Sorry, but I prefer not to get addicted to medication.

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[info]yechezkiel

October 17 2003, 15:55:19 UTC 8 years ago

If a=b, and b=c, then...

Dude! You don't exist spiritually!

[info]_starblade_

October 17 2003, 15:56:55 UTC 8 years ago

Yay!

A solipsist! Congrats!

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[info]snocat

October 17 2003, 15:57:16 UTC 8 years ago

So...you're...like...a furry?

[info]_starblade_

October 17 2003, 15:59:58 UTC 8 years ago

Uh...

Almost, but furry is a more general term, particularly when it applies to things that aren't furred. One can apply it to Otherkin or one can choose not to. Furry is not a very well defined term.

Otherkin is something more specific. That's why I've chosen to call myself that.

BTW... do you go to SA/PoE or other Bastard Culture sites?

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[info]_starblade_

October 17 2003, 16:17:14 UTC 8 years ago

Hm...

It's not. I'm not against Christianity as a spiritual beleif. But I do believe that they should respect other religeons as well.

I don't, however, hold it against the religeon just because a few bad apples get all intolerant of other religeons. I just hold it against the individuals if they do something that harms others.

Yeah, live and let live I guess.

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[info]_sourgrapes_

October 17 2003, 16:09:49 UTC 8 years ago

I bet you're one of those people who buys anime like it's crack.

[info]tydestra

October 17 2003, 18:07:50 UTC 8 years ago

:p I buy my anime like crack right off the boats in Chinatown!

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[info]funkjunky

October 17 2003, 16:11:41 UTC 8 years ago

Why should I respect you for your choice of belief if you respect mine?

[info]_starblade_

October 17 2003, 16:21:58 UTC 8 years ago

Uh...

Because it's sort of a reciprocal thing?

The whole thing is, that beliefs of the sort I'm talking about don't conflict with eachother. Other things, like true or false statements, can, but they only have meaning when they can be proven either through empirical research or rational scrutony, and in both cases, with rigor and integrity.

If two beliefs are equally un-falsifiable, then they are equally valid as beliefs.

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[info]jonfmorse

October 17 2003, 16:13:33 UTC 8 years ago

I believe that men in little white coats will come for you eventually.

Since we have no way to falsify this belief given the information available to us, my belief is obviously valid.

[info]ex_lovecraf

October 17 2003, 16:19:29 UTC 8 years ago

I typed a long, intelligent rebuttal of your argument, but then I realize you think you're a dragon, so, you know, you're a fucking retard, and what's the point?

Btw, this crowd never forgets shit. Expect to be mocked endlessly for this admission.

[info]caitfish

October 17 2003, 16:22:30 UTC 8 years ago

Hahaha.

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[info]mlfoley

October 17 2003, 16:28:25 UTC 8 years ago

Spritiaully, I believe I am Shaft.

Is this compatible with Otherkin beliefs?

[info]yechezkiel

October 17 2003, 16:32:46 UTC 8 years ago

You're one BAD mutha...

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[info]gysgt_hartman

October 17 2003, 16:33:05 UTC 8 years ago

YOU SICK, SLIMEY, STUPID, NEW-AGED LOSER SON OF A FRENCH WHORE! I BELIEVE THAT SPIRITUALLY, I AM A FOOT, DESTINED TO BE SHOVED SO FAR UP YOUR DIRTY HIPPIE ASS THAT YOU'LL BE SHITTING SIZE 10,000 BOOTPRINTS FOR THE REST OF YOUR DRAGON FUCKING LIFE!

[info]mlfoley

October 17 2003, 16:39:37 UTC 8 years ago

ROTFL.

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[info]williamblake

October 17 2003, 16:35:03 UTC 8 years ago

You are a complete nut.

[info]zulko

October 20 2003, 00:21:26 UTC 8 years ago

hahaha, irony!

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8 years ago

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[info]akfelecia

October 17 2003, 16:36:42 UTC 8 years ago

I have to say that it is sweeeeeeet that your icon is your 'self portrait.' Just fabolous! Now as for people thinking you are a freak, I just don't understand why....

[info]mlfoley

October 17 2003, 16:47:23 UTC 8 years ago

It is simply INCONCEIVABLE!

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[info]gysgt_hartman

October 17 2003, 16:40:04 UTC 8 years ago

I ALSO BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE A SADLY FUCKING SOCIALLY INEPT 19 YEAR OLD VIRGIN, WHO WILL STAY THAT WAY UNTIL WELL INTO YOUR FUCKING FORTIES! GET OFF YOUR PISSY LITTLE ANIME ADDICTION, STOP PLAYING D&D EVERY GOD DAMNED FREE EVENING YOU HAVE, GET A CASE OF BEER, FIND A GIRL, AND GET A FUCKING LIFE!

[info]gray_davis

October 17 2003, 19:22:40 UTC 8 years ago

It's a shame I didn't think to hire you a few weeks ago. You could have told Arnold what's what.

[info]dylansilver

8 years ago

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8 years ago

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[info]ex_mrflagg

October 17 2003, 16:44:25 UTC 8 years ago

troll

[info]_starblade_

October 17 2003, 16:46:51 UTC 8 years ago

I know you are but what am I?

I know that was childish, but so is your accusation that I am a troll.

I am posting a legitimate debate topic, for the purpose of having a meaningful debate.

You, on the other hand, are just trying to insult and degrade me for no real reason.

So, I ask again, who is the REAL troll here?

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[info]chrismu

October 17 2003, 16:54:47 UTC 8 years ago

Doesn't bother me, but I am quite curious just how you came to that conclusion. Do you have a mental image of yourself as a dragon?

[info]_starblade_

October 17 2003, 17:06:56 UTC 8 years ago

Yeah.

While I realize that I'm stuck as human physically (at least in this lifetime) I still have an image of myself as a dragon.

My icon is kind of a self portrait of my dragon self.

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[info]tydestra

October 17 2003, 18:26:31 UTC 8 years ago

Dragon's Advocate

I’m not saying I believe you nor am I bashing you. Unlike the wealth of close-minded pricks on debate, I believe in the multifaceted aspects of the spirit & soul; after all I'm the trippy pagan of the bunch. There are rituals performed by African tribes to place an animal’s spirit within a human’s spirit (mostly done in before going to war, even to this day) etc all.

One thing that I don’t believe in is a person that gets online and says they’re Other kin, just I don’t respect ‘fortune tellers’ that charge to do their craft for someone. As for you, if you are Other Kin, I recommend that you join [Bad username: “other_kin”], there at least you’ll be in a more understanding group.

The last time an Other Kin debate came up, I posted the link to this article, doing it again in case someone hasn't read it, or is interested in doing so:
Elven Like Me: Village Voice Feb. 2001



[info]tydestra

October 17 2003, 18:28:55 UTC 8 years ago

Re: Dragon's Advocate

I thought it was with an underscore, my bad.
[info]otherkin

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[info]dr_ellipso

October 17 2003, 18:52:36 UTC 8 years ago

Admit it.. you just like those freaky orgies, right?

[info]gray_davis

October 17 2003, 20:47:01 UTC 8 years ago

I bet he's no different than Arnold in that regard.

[info]savagemind

October 17 2003, 19:00:09 UTC 8 years ago

preach it, puff!

first of all, don't even pretend that you aren't into the whole dragon-spirit thing just to pick up all those furry bitches. that said, mad props for using the word draconity.

[info]mlfoley

October 17 2003, 19:07:09 UTC 8 years ago

Re: preach it, puff!

Who the hell would want to fuck a furry chick? I wouldn't want to be anywhere a male furry has been, and besides, I'd think most sane people would refuse to wear a badger suit just to get some nookie.

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[info]coaldustcanary

October 17 2003, 19:04:46 UTC 8 years ago

I'll be honest and forthright with the reasons I consider your beliefs problematic. There is nothing wrong with thinking of yourself as a dragon. There is equally as much nothing wrong for me thinking this makes you a nutcase. Generally, I accept my friends who think they are spiritually...different. I have friends who think they are dragons, demons, reincarnated druids, whatever.

However, people like you are the reason the public at large things peolple like me are as absolutely nucking futz as you are. You are the extremist who makes all other folks who might be considered pagan, or new age, or spiritually open, or whatever seem just as freakish. People *shouldn't* think you're crazy. But people WILL think you're crazy, and if I accept your belief, I get labeled as being crazy too.

And you can dismiss crazy people and not take them seriously. Do you really feel a need to broadcast to everyone that you're "a dragon, spiritually"? Honestly, you seem to be doing it just to have an excuse to justify yourself, otherwise why post in this community? Understand that your emotional and spiritual well-being is not dependent upon the acceptance of belief of others. You are not Tinkerbelle. You don't need people to clap and believe in dragons to believe whatever the heck you want.

But I will shake my head at you sadly and cringe inwardly because by association, you make me look bad. Sorry. That's the way it is.

[info]_starblade_

October 17 2003, 20:33:37 UTC 8 years ago

Uh...

Okay, I understand what you're saying. But here's what I have to say.

When I brought up this debate topic, I wasn't arguing specifically about my draconity. I was just giving that as an example. A kind of anecdote. The real issue was beliefs, and how my beliefs are just as valid as any other's.

I knew people were going to look at me funny when I posted this. But, really, with the kind of crazy stuff that people post here, I figured it wouldn't do any harm.

Besides, they were going to learn about Otherkin sooner or later anyways. So why not now? The quicker it's done, the less painful it will be.

I really hope that you don't think I was doing this just for the attention. I just wanted to bring an important issue to the table. It's everyone else that's making an ass of themselves. I just end up looking like an idiot because I'm choosing to deal with them.

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[info]mlfoley

October 17 2003, 19:11:43 UTC 8 years ago

I do have a serious question. There have been no confirmed instances of dragons or dragon fossils. How do you know you were a dragon in a past life?

Incidentally, why do all otherkin think they're D&D creatures or otherwise noble animals? There are a hell of a lot more dung beetles than there are dragons or elves or wolves, yet you never hear anyone say, "I was a dung beetle in a past life!" or "I was a cockroach!" or "I was a cardinal bird!"

Seems to me, you all just choose animals you like and "identify" with them, rather than any serious spirital exploration.

[info]gothvamp

October 17 2003, 20:23:32 UTC 8 years ago

Or, as one concerned writer asked the "Otherkin" expert on the FAQ site:


How do I know I'm not making this all up? How do I know I'm not just paying head-games with myself, pretending to be something "cool"? {Ghostshadow}

You hit the nail on the head buddy. It's always something "cool." Just like the ones who publicize their past lives - they were always Napoleon, or Cleopatra...never 'just' a scullery maid or stable boy shoveling shite.

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[info]lordindra

8 years ago

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[info]rainbowblue

8 years ago

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[info]mlfoley

8 years ago

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[info]mlfoley

8 years ago

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[info]buggrit

8 years ago

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...and 18 more comments... from [info]elynne, [info]beandelphiki, [info]seannau… Expand

[info]nonexistent

October 17 2003, 19:22:14 UTC 8 years ago

It's a rare guest appearance!

Just so y'all can get a grasp on how deep the idiocy of this "Otherkin" crap is, I present to you the Otherkin FAQ on "KinHost". I shit you not.

[info]yechezkiel

October 17 2003, 20:11:29 UTC 8 years ago

Re: It's a rare guest appearance!

A good example is: Are all elves physically or energetically sensitive to metal/iron? No. But perhaps as much as 30% or so are. It certainly seems to be a trend.

LOL

Classic.

[info]theadvocate

8 years ago

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[info]yechezkiel

8 years ago

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[info]theadvocate

8 years ago

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[info]yechezkiel

8 years ago

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[info]vizali

8 years ago

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[info]love_power

8 years ago

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[info]gothvamp

8 years ago

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[info]mlfoley

8 years ago

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[info]chrismu

8 years ago

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...and 3 more comments... from [info]mlfoley, [info]darkhelmet, [info]disgruntledgrrl Expand

[info]gray_davis

October 17 2003, 19:27:40 UTC 8 years ago

I see you live in California. Did you vote for me? If so, I'd be happy to give you millions in government money. After all, California has people from every planet in the world.

[info]_starblade_

October 17 2003, 20:29:54 UTC 8 years ago

Heheh.

Every planet in the world... that's rich. :P

California probably would be the first place for Otherkins to publicly declare themselves.

[info]gray_davis

8 years ago

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[info]purplemanatee

8 years ago

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[info]nullcherri

8 years ago

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